Are Electric Vehicles as Sustainable as We’re Meant to Believe?

This week’s episode of the Fleet FYIs Podcast is introducing a new guest to the show, CTO and co-founder of Volta Power Systems, Jack Johnson.

We’re breaking down sustainability from a new angle – focusing on what exactly makes this new technology sustainable, and whether or not the hunt for materials used to create batteries is as sustainable as you might think. Jack also touches on the benefits of a hybridized fleet and how you might actually be able to do more when you include a shared power system.

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Here’s a quick summary our conversation:

“If you think about the depreciation rate and how fast you’re using up engine and the fuel you’re burning while you’re idling, it’s a huge economic hit. By having anti-idling solutions and having governments push that, if you think about it, it’s actually going to give you a return over time.”


“Most of the time you see smaller, lighter vehicles being electric, because they’re more aerodynamic, they’re lightweight, you’re not doing as much work and their main purpose is transportation. It has a much lower energy use than a work truck.”

Jack Johnson, Are Electric Vehicles as Sustainable as They Want Us to Think? | Utilimarc Fleet FYIs Podcast

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Are Electric Vehicles as Sustainable as They Want Us to Think? | Fleet FYIs: Season 2 Episode 6

Gretchen Reese (00:06):

Hey there, welcome to Fleet FYIs, the weekly podcast by Utilimarc that reveals how you can make the most of your data for smarter fleet management. My name is Gretchen and every week you’ll hear from me and some of the industry’s finest in candid conversations that will shed some light on not only two decades worth of data insights, but some of the industry’s hottest talking points and key metric analysis with the aim to help you better understand your fleet from every angle.

Gretchen Reese (00:33):

But before we begin, if this is the first time you’ve heard our show, thanks for stopping by. I’m so glad you decided to come along for the ride with us, but I’ve got a quick favor to ask you. Once you’ve finished today’s episode, if you could take a few minutes to leave us a review on your favorite podcasting platform, we would really appreciate it. Give us a rating, five stars I hope, or tell us what you liked or leave us a comment or a question about what you’ve heard in today’s episode. But if we haven’t yet covered a topic that you’re interested in hearing more about, let us know. We would be happy to go over it in detail in a later episode. If that sounds good to you, let’s get back to the show.

Gretchen Reese (01:09):

Hey, everyone, and welcome back to another episode of the Fleet FYIs podcast. How are you all doing? It’s been a little while, hasn’t it? Not to worry, we miss being in your headphones, hopefully just as much as you missed us, if not more. But before we launch into this episode, I have a quick little ask for you if that’s okay. I want to make sure that the content that we’re putting out is what you’re interested in listening to. I want to make sure it’s what gets your gears going, what challenges you, what piques your interests, so on and so forth. So, if there’s a topic that you’d really like for us to cover in the future, send us an email at marketing@www.utilimarc.com to let us know, because it’s something that I’m really looking forward to hearing from you all and making sure that we’re actually creating content that you really want to hear about. Housekeeping out of the way, welcome back. Again.

Gretchen Reese (02:10):

Today’s episode is one that I can’t wait to share with you. Our guest for this show is Jack Johnson, the CTO and co-founder of Volta Power Systems based out of Detroit, Michigan. And to give you a little bit of background, Volta is best known for its creation of powerful, safe and simple lithium ion energy storage systems for vehicles. And, they’re not just limited to the utility fleet industry, which I think is kind of cool, and Jack is going to delve into a new facet of sustainability that we haven’t really touched on just yet on Fleet FYI’s. Now fair warning, as with any sustainability episode, of course I had to throw in a dash of electric vehicles because it’s been on my mind, it’s been on the minds of our analysts and so many people throughout the industry. They’re not going away, they’re a new technology and they’re exciting.

Gretchen Reese (02:58):

You love them or you hate them. It goes on, but what Jack is really focusing on, he’s chatting about the sustainability of lithium mining, which I think is particularly fascinating because if you look at the argument for sustainability with this new technology, when you’re looking at lithium mining, the question of it being sustainable is pretty important to determine whether or not electric vehicles truly are sustainable, right? So if that step of the technology process is not, well then how sustainable truly is this new technology?

Gretchen Reese (03:32):

It’s a little up in the air, but Jack will delve further into that question a little bit later in the episode. He’s also going to be chatting about hybrid auxiliary power systems and anti-idle regulations, and also how potentially a hybridized fleet can actually help combat that or help get you ahead of some of these whilst not having to sacrifice any power or any performance of your fleet vehicles, which I also think is quite the intriguing aspect. So, if you’re ready for more, let’s get into the show because I have a feeling you’re going to like this one. Here we go.

Gretchen Reese (04:16):

Hi, Jack. Welcome to the Fleet FYIs podcast. How’s it going?

Jack Johnson (04:20):

I’m doing great. How are you today?

Gretchen Reese (04:22):

I am fantastic. Granted, Minnesota has just gotten a dumping of snow in the last 24 hours, which I’m not thrilled about in March, but what can I say about that?

Jack Johnson (04:32):

I understand we got the… The snow went away and then all of a sudden it got cold again, so we’re in the same boat.

Gretchen Reese (04:39):

I always think once the snow starts to leave, then I am the one that is by all means ready for spring. Granted, I love skiing, but once the snow is gone, I’m ready for spring. I don’t want it back, though it came back yesterday.

Jack Johnson (04:52):

I agree. I want to get the hot rods out and start having some fun. I have the itch to get my old cars out, get cleaned up, and then I think, “Oh, I’m going to get them out.” And then, nope, nope [crosstalk 00:05:03].

Gretchen Reese (05:05):

Actually funnily enough, we had quite a few people I had seen driving some Corvettes around and then there’s a couple that has an old… I think it’s just a legacy car collection that, oh gosh, what’s… I think they have a couple of heritage Aston Martins in it as well and they’ve been driving around catting around in. They look like they’re having a great time, but I think they might’ve gotten it out a little bit too early because it is at least here in Minnesota after all. So, spring snow is to be expected.

Jack Johnson (05:40):

Yep, all the car people usually are like, “I can’t wait.” Especially when we live up North [crosstalk 00:05:45] enjoy them.

Gretchen Reese (05:48):

Raring and ready to go.

Jack Johnson (05:49):

That’s right.

Gretchen Reese (05:50):

Why don’t we quickly switch gears and get started with a quick introduction? Because I love intros, especially if we have a new guest on the podcast. So, can you tell our listeners a little bit more about you and who/what is Volta Power Systems?

Jack Johnson (06:05):

Oh, sure. Well, my name is Jack Johnson and I’m a founder and original, crazy brainiac around what is Volta. And, my background is originally automotive based engineering. So, I worked for a very large automotive supplier for years that made everything from interior components, advanced materials to batteries for the automotive industry. And, I was one of those team members that went around and could make things work. I’m a farm kid, grew up using my hands, got an engineering degree and have that unique skillset that I can actually fairly well communicate with folks and talk technology and not make it too dry. But at the same time, a passion of using my hands and that got me the opportunity to build the first large format automotive-based lithium-ion facility ever made in the world back in the late 2000s, 2010 timeframe, and that was a $250 million project.

Jack Johnson (07:07):

That was crazy. We had to build a plant in less than a year, something no one ever did before. And when you do a project like that, you have to become an expert in the technology you’re trying to construct and that was lithium-ion, and we are building unique technology that most of the world doesn’t quite understand yet. And, we were able to take that knowledge and decided to figure out how we can bring in technology to fleet, RV industry, and marine companies where they don’t have multi-billion dollar budgets.

Jack Johnson (07:42):

And so what Volta is, is we took all that knowledge that I was fortunate enough to be a part of and lead and created Volta with the idea of making advanced energy technology simple for smaller markets where the value offset the complexity is so great that it can make it so that fleets and other smaller industries can actually take on the idea of going electrified or adding electrification to their portfolio without the risk. You might’ve heard of there’s been a lot of bad stories about people entering the market and then things not working. And, our goal is to make that not happen and allow people to adapt energy, at least take advantage of advanced energy that’s around them today.

Gretchen Reese (08:35):

And, when we were talking about technology, this technology that whether people have heard of it or not, or whether they fully understand it or not, I think that’s almost kind of where electric vehicles are sitting right now just because the battery technology is changing so rapidly for good and bad reasons. And, I want to break into that just a little bit. So, you and I both know they’re part of this new trend that keeps sustainability at the forefront, and they’re also trying to maintain the efficiencies that a traditional internal combustion engine vehicle can. Do you think you could tell me about some of the concerns that you frequently encountered and maybe how that pairs with the work that you’re doing at Volta? Because you have a lot of people that they definitely site range anxiety and lack of infrastructure as one of the top two, but how does that fit in with what you’re doing now?

Jack Johnson (09:31):

Well, that’s scratching the surface. Those are definitely two big ones. Range isn’t easy, especially for an industrial truck, a bigger truck. It’s just not there yet from energy density. For instance diesel fuel, diesel fuel is almost 30 times more energy dense than the best lithium-ion out there today. And when you’re trying to move a big vehicle and do a lot of work, if you don’t have the energy, it’s not going to be ready for you. It’s not going to be functional. Infrastructure is also, of course, a big deal. Okay, where’s my expense budget? How am I going to fund all that infrastructure? Where is it going?

Jack Johnson (10:08):

Those are two of the things, but some of the other things I really hear a lot from fleet managers along with that is uptime, reliability. Can I trust this? Fleet managers have a limited budget. They get their allocation of vehicles and then they’ve got to work. They got to keep the crews on the road. They need to have the capability to keep them busy and meet their objectives, and if they’ve got a vehicle that’s unproven or comes with excess risk, that’s really a hard thing for a fleet manager, in my experience, to get over.

Jack Johnson (10:41):

And, then the other is traditional cost structures. I think fleets have a unique situation where they got to show a return on that investment. How do I justify a vehicle and how do I get that return on that vehicle if it’s going to be four or five times more? And so, the pressure’s always there to say, “Hey, how can I get the same amount of work done and be competitive and maintain my cost structures that I need to be today?” Put those four together and that probably is getting what I see as most of the concerns from a fleet.

Gretchen Reese (11:20):

Absolutely, and two things, they popped into my mind when you were talking about just the mainstream concerns that a lot of fleet managers or fleet directors might have when it comes to EVs, the first being lithium sourcing. Do you have an opinion on how that’s being done? Do you think it’s being done in a sustainable way? Because one concern I’ve actually… It’s a recent one that’s come up in some of our email communications is that there’s a great number of people that when they’re looking at lithium sourcing, they’re concerned it might not be sustainable and for a technology that boasts to be more sustainable, they want to make sure that that fits in before the investment is made. What do you think about that?

Jack Johnson (12:02):

Well, it’s definitely a difficult subject to discuss because both sides have good points. There is a sustainable point when you talk about the material. So, a lot of people don’t realize when we talk lithium, they jump to the word lithium and they think about the news articles they’ve seen about getting it out of deserts and available lithium. But by weight, lithium is less than 1% of a lithium-ion battery. The modern automotive based lithium batteries are mostly made out of copper, aluminum, nickel, some manganese, and carbon graphite, pencil graphite, if you will. But, you think about nickel as one of the bigger items, it comes from mining. It has to have large mining sources. You have to have large volume of mining. And, if you say with just a blind eye that, well you know, drilling oil is better.

Jack Johnson (13:00):

Well, yes and no, it really comes down on the trade-offs. When you look at advanced energy and what it can give you in terms of putting the two together, there’s really good paybacks. And, I think for me, conservation of our environment really should be important to everybody. I think most people agree that. I think the challenges comes down to in the classical right versus who’s right, human competition. But when you look at the data, one of the best things you can rally around is look at your true return on investment. And for us, or Volta, what we really concentrate on is when we look at some of these projects and you’re trying to do electrification, if you can find a way that you can cut emissions dramatically and show a payback within a year, year and a half, if you can get a true payback, then you know you’re offsetting sustainability long-term because sustainability generally is a function of, can you make it not only environmentally responsible or sustainable, but also economically sustainable?

Jack Johnson (14:08):

If you put those two together it works. For example, if you pick out a product and you go and you buy a lithium-ion product that’s very expensive, you think it’s great, but it only lasts three years and you didn’t get that link to payback, then the example there was a lot of times cost drivers make poor decisions, but if you did that, obviously that would be a really bad investment. But, if you spend the time and money, invest in a high quality solution or a hybridized solution, that gives you the best of both and shows your return. There’s that sweet spot where you’re making a return in investment and you’re also cutting, in most cases over the lifetime of that vehicle, hundreds of thousands if not millions of pounds of CO2 reduction. So, it’s possible. The point of that story is it’s possible, but it really depends on the details, which is everybody wants that fun answer, but it is doable if you do your homework.

Gretchen Reese (15:11):

I’m sure. It’s a fascinating argument, I think, and I definitely know what you mean. There’s people that on both sides of the argument, they want to be right. That’s just natural human instinct and the whole, I think just the discussion surrounding who’s right definitely gets a lot of people heated up and almost revved up for a really bad pun, but it’s definitely like you said, the biggest component is ROI and you want to make sure that you’re offsetting your sustainability in other places to make sure that… Making sure that mining is something that you’re okay with doing and if that means you can offset by millions of tons of carbon, then potentially it might be worth it. Who knows?

Jack Johnson (15:53):

Exactly and that’s the challenge of any industry is the details. And, I think it’s human nature to jump to an aha, and definitely there’s really good examples of where… I can give you examples of where they ship nickel all over the world three times to refine it, and you think about the investment cost and early on it was going to take like 20 years for a return on the environment on that particular example. But, that could be resolved by, hey, how do you think about manufacturing? How do you think about how you’re building this? It’s working out the process and working the details and making sure you’re putting the technology where it matters to get the best return. And when I say return, I always like to think of that as two things. That’s the return on sustainability and a true return on investment.

Gretchen Reese (16:48):

Absolutely, and actually funnily enough, that made me think of something that I had read. It was on some news source the other day, and it was talking about fast fashion and some of the returns that some people do. So, that’s some of your bigger conglomerates that are able to turn new things out quite quickly, and they were saying that in terms of sustainability and what it would cost the brand to be able to ship the product to you. And if you want to return it, a lot of times they just say keep it or throw it away, but we’ll give you the refund because that’s cheaper for us than being able to ship it all the way back, and we don’t really care what you do with the garment. And, it’s just an interesting piece, I think, of the argument of sustainability, just how much they’re truly trying to offset that, whether it’s for a cost motivator or if it’s truly to try and be able to fix or to try and help preserve the environment.

Jack Johnson (17:39):

You’re right, and that’s what’s really fascinating about a lot of decisions. We think about how markets work, sometimes markets, the best cost is bad for the environment, that’s definitely true, and you got to be aware of that, but long-term sustainability for a business, but you got to have both. You need to be thinking sustainable because if you got a sustainable resource and you’re doing it in a good manner, you can make good, solid business cases. It’s when priorities get out of whack or knowledge is limited, that’s where you can get into what I’ve seen some troubles.

Gretchen Reese (18:17):

Absolutely, and before I forget the second part of my question, because I know I did say that that was a dual party question and circling back to electric vehicles from shipping and lithium-ion batteries, how would you say… Or I should say, how do you think fleets or maybe directors, managers, drivers, et cetera, how do you think that they can overcome the initial worries surrounding their primary concerns? Let’s use range anxiety for an example, because when you think about it, they’re valid like you said. Obviously, the concern comes from a very specific place, especially with a new technology, but for example, if they’re used in vehicles or if electric vehicles are used at a job site where the vehicle needs to idle, how would electricity or electric vehicles be able to offset that concern?

Jack Johnson (19:08):

Well, there’s a couple approaches. You can go with theoretical full electric vehicle, which would be the vehicle drives the drive train, meaning makes it motivate move, and then also powers all what we call accessory loads or auxiliary loads. That would be what traditionally a power takeoff or PTO would do, your air conditioning, all your hotel loads. The challenge for a work truck is the amount of energy spent at the job site in let’s say an eight hour shift, will probably be more than if it was driving all day long. And, that’s what makes it very challenging to do an all electric vehicle. I believe in Volta we focus on where you get the best return or bang for the buck. You can do both. If you can eliminate all the idling for an all day job site, so almost what we call micro hybrid, you’re doing everything, but drive the wheels, you can get about 90% reduction of all the emissions and hit all your goals you want with a lot lower costs and a lot less risk.

Jack Johnson (20:16):

If you go full EV, you definitely would want to understand your ranging, how is the workload, where is it driving to? And, you’re going to have to make sure you understand its use case because unlike where you’ve got a lot of excess energy with diesel fuel, you won’t have that with your electricity and you’ll have to manage it very, very closely. And, that’s the challenge that currently evidently so range anxiety is an issue because for big trucks, again, for big trucks, it has a limitation.

Jack Johnson (20:57):

That’s why most of the time you see smaller, lighter vehicles being electric, because they’re more aerodynamic, they’re lighter weight, you’re not doing as much work and their main purpose is transportation, and that has a lower energy use than when you’re doing a work truck. So, the way I would… That’s a long explanation of your question or response your question, but I think that the magic for range anxiety is try to find out if you can find what we do micro hybridization, or find ways to electrify certain parts of the fleet and bring yourself closer to electrification and get your teams adjusted to it. That’s my recommendation for approach.

Gretchen Reese (21:43):

So if we’re going, again, based off of the idling piece, I’m well aware that there are specific anti-idle regulations that are put in place for service providers. What do you think the impact of these regulations is, whether it’s on an electric fleet or a traditional internal combustion fleet?

Jack Johnson (22:06):

What’s the impact? So, I would say a lot of your customers in those areas would say it’s an annoyance, I guess, but there’s actually some really good things that come from anti-idling mitigation. One is life, so one of the biggest things, I think, for a fleet person is they look in that asset and they think about that return over time and the replacement. Well, engine idling on fleet vehicles, I believe the EPA, or the National Highway Transportation Board classifies for every hour of idling is equivalent to I think 30 or 35 miles of driving. And so, if you think about that depreciation rate and how fast you’re using up engine idling, the fuel you burn at idling, it’s a huge economic hit, and by having anti-idling solutions and having governments push that, if you think about it, it’s actually going to give you a return over time.

Jack Johnson (23:09):

The second thing that I really think is great about anti-idling would be on a job site. I recently had a company talk about the chaos of job sites, and you think about the noise, the smells, all the things you can think about working on an alignment track or working on an industrial vehicle, and they’re sitting there idling and you need to communicate a safety issue, or you just need to have a conversation with a co-worker, what it takes to have that conversation when you remove that from the job site, and they say calm, the chaos, your effectiveness improves, workplace environment improves. Emission is also there, of course, but in the emissions that you can detect as a person, the smell, as well as noise emissions, those are big points to being on the job site. So, those are just two of the, I think, great things that come out of anti-idling solutions, and I think when people look at it and they have a good solution, I think they’ll find that’s a positive thing across the industry.

Gretchen Reese (24:14):

So, how do you think you would approach that question if you were speaking to somebody that was either convinced or it was proven necessary that they needed to have their engine idling all day to get the job done?

Jack Johnson (24:26):

Try it, I would definitely encourage them to try it. So far we’ve had great… One of our fleets, Oklahoma Gas & Electric, they started using it, and the fleet teams who are traditionally always on diesel, always had that kind of running all day long, they right away say, “We love the there’s no sound. It’s quiet through the day and then they really liked the hydraulics because you might’ve heard, and your fleet teams might’ve seen the cars.

Jack Johnson (24:57):

You put up a Tesla is racing a brand new Dodge Demon Hellcat or whatever, and the Tesla wins. Well, why is that? Because you can make a lot of torque and a lot of power instantaneously on the low end. Well, when you’re doing work, you want power. You think all those teammates out there working hard, doing whatever they’re doing, it’s power that makes a difference in their lives, and we’re talking two, three times the power of traditional hydraulic PTO. So, if you’re flying a bucket truck or if you’ve got to try to do real world work and you can make things stronger, faster, better, it’s quick to get the team on board.

Gretchen Reese (25:42):

So, do you think that fleets and maybe perhaps the operators of the vehicles could potentially, and I’m aware this isn’t the right word, but get around the regulations or perhaps a better way to say it could be work with the regulations in place or even switch their focus from the I need to idle to potentially a battery could work a little bit better if they might adapt a hybrid auxiliary power system instead or do you think that would really have an effect?

Jack Johnson (26:12):

I think that’s exactly what we focus on is going to what we call micro hybridization and basically all of the functions of a vehicle operate off of battery. And so, the main engine really is only regulated at one thing, get you to the job site, that’s it. That’s our focus at Volta for our industrial fleet customers, and we’ve had really great success. We’ve got stories all over the US of fleets slowly adapting to our product. It’s a great incremental step because you’re not going to need infrastructure. You can charge it anywhere, or you can just run the whole operation off the truck, and the worst case, so if you deplete your energy reserves, you’re not done for the day. You just fire the engine up and you’ll charge in a couple of hours and you can go back off. I think our average is eight hours of runtime to two hours of charge time, and that usually returns a payback in around one year in just fuel savings.

Gretchen Reese (27:16):

I’m sure, that sounds like a pretty impressive right there. And so, then let’s say that this hybridized technology then carries over to the entire fleet as well. So, it’s not just the trucks that need to be idling at a work site, but the entire fleet. How do you think a hybridized work truck fleet can provide a cost-effective or let’s say eco-conscious way for organizations and fleets to achieve almost an idle-free, green fleet without sacrificing their range, or without tapping into some of these concerns that we had spoken about earlier?

Jack Johnson (27:51):

I think what you just raised in your question is exactly what the answer is, is that by hybridizing you’re giving the fleet confidence that, hey, that chassis that I’ve been building for the last 20 years, that all of my work staff, all of my train mechanics know how to work on is still there. My warranties, my relationships with my suppliers, everything still works and I can trust it, and then when you reduce electrification for us, when we do it, we do it all low voltage, and what’s really important about low voltage is anything under 60 volts DC is considered low voltage or touch safe. So, the standard training of your workforce can work on this technology. Anything over 60 volts DC, you need to have special high voltage training as well as liability and insurance and other structures come with it that makes it a little more… It’s very dangerous if you don’t know what you’re doing.

Jack Johnson (28:50):

And so simplifying that, making it accessible and available for their work teams to work on it, providing a financial return on engine idling, life expectancy, as well as improving performance, when you couple all those together, and you look at the difference between a hybridized work truck and a full electric work truck, you’re saving almost 90% of all the value points a full EV gives you without all the cost structure. No special infrastructure, no limitation on range. In many cases, the range could triple over what you get today with just a fuel vehicle. That makes for storm duty, our trucks are some of the best storm duties out there because you’re talking about such a higher efficiency with limited fuel or availability. Now you can go longer because you’re using your energy more effectively. Those are just several of the things that really can help people get over. One, make a step into environmentally friendly or better solutions. Get yourself a payback and make a better workplace all in one technology offering. That’s why we get excited here.

Gretchen Reese (30:08):

Well, I’m sure it sounds like you definitely have a reason to be that’s for sure. So, is there anything else that you’d like to add about Volta Power Systems, hybridized technology, electric vehicles, anything like that before we wrap this episode up?

Jack Johnson (30:23):

Well, if anybody’s interested, check out our website, www.voltapowersystems.com or voltaaps.com. There’s some configuration tools out there, so if you want to put in what are you trying to run, how long you want to run it and what kind of theoretical payback you can get, those models are out there. And also, there’s some great tips on trying to understand all the chemistry and what makes batteries different and why are they what they are. You can discover some of that out there, and if anybody’s got a question, just reach out.

Gretchen Reese (30:58):

And, would be the best place to get in contact with you? Would it be on your website, an email, LinkedIn? What do you think?

Jack Johnson (31:06):

There’s a contact email, and when you fill out any of the work truck requests, it goes directly to the appropriate team members, and if they’d like to call directly, our phone number’s on the website.

Gretchen Reese (31:18):

All right, well, Jack, again, I just want to thank you for your time. I think a lot of people are going to get quite a bit out of what we were talking about today. I’m excited for everyone to hear it.

Jack Johnson (31:28):

Thank you for the time. It is a lot of fun to reach out and talk to folks.

Gretchen Reese (31:45):

Well, I don’t know about you, but I feel like sustainability has so many more facets to it than one might originally think, especially when you think about how this technology is created and the materials that are being used. Jack said that we barely scratched the surface in today’s episode and he’s right. He also brought up an interesting point about focusing on hybridization, one that many manufacturers have already started to jump on, like for example, Ford with its fully hybrid option F-150 that was announced last summer.

Gretchen Reese (32:16):

But, what Jack was saying about being able to split your power systems and still keep optimal performance without the need to idle and waste fuel whilst also keeping work sites cleaner and healthier for those in and around them, that’s some pretty powerful stuff, at least in my opinion. But as always, if you liked today’s episode, let us know by reaching out to us on LinkedIn using the Utilimarc Fleet FYIs hashtag, and also please don’t be afraid to send us an email for any feedback or topic requests that you might have. I’m looking forward to hearing from you and we will be back in your headphones next week. So, I’ll see you there.

Gretchen Reese (32:54):

Hey there, I think this is the time that I should cue the virtual high five because you’ve just finished listening to another episode of the Fleet FYIs podcast. If you’re already wanting more content, head over to utilimarc.com, which is Utilimarc with a C. U-T-I-L-I-M-A-R-C.com for the show notes and extra insights coming straight from our analysts to you. That’s all for me this week so until next time, I’ll catch you later.

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